Gini Dietrich

Equality in the Workplace for Women

By: Gini Dietrich | September 1, 2010 | 

As of late, there has been quite a bit written about equality in the workplace for women. First an absolutely scathing article, “Equality, Suffrage, and a Fetish for Money” was posted on the U.S. Chamber of Commerce blog about how ridiculous women are being in wanting equality (read the comments – it absolutely blows my mind people like Harrytoo exist in our country). Yes, on the blog of the organization that supports small businesses (thankfully the Chamber’s COO wrote a week later stating he didn’t agree with the original post).

Then, I’m going through my Google Reader last night and I find a post on Harvard Business Review called, “How Sex Hurts the Workplace, Especially Women.” An article that explores Mark Hurd’s recent scandal (Hewlett Packard CEO) as a casualty to high-achieving female executives because now men will look at the situation and think, “Poor guy was fired for dining alone with a junior woman. No one is even alleging a sexual relationship. How crazy is that! It makes me want to avoid ever being alone with a younger female colleague.”

I own a business. I employ mostly women. I don’t have children. I was always treated fairly in my jobs and, really, made more money than I probably deserved. So I’ve always had a hard time understanding how men and women aren’t treated equally on the job.

But it’s out there and a recent New York Times article shows there is 23 percent wage gap between men and women for the same, exact job. Twenty-three percent. You know why? Because “many more women take time off from work. Many more women work part time at some point in their careers. Many more women can’t get to work early or stay late.” Total baloney. The women I know who have children and work, actually work harder than their male counterparts. There is a certain guilt associated with needing to be home with the kids (that our society has created) so they go above and beyond to prove how serious they are about their careers.

Being treated equally on the job, which I strive to do with my team daily (pay, raises, bonuses, and incentives are commensurate with their goals and how they help the business grow, not on sex), is overly important to me…it’s that fairness gene I inherited from my mother. But that’s not to say that we, as a company, have been treated fairly in new business pitches or when we’re up against our male counterparts.

I’ve written about Charles Arment, an imaginary partner we made up (a la Remington Steele) for those times when new business prospects insisted on meeting my MALE partner, insinuating a woman can’t grow a business alone.  This was early on in the business when I didn’t have the confidence (or, really, the cash flow) to tell those kinds of men to stick it where the sun don’t shine; now I have zero problem walking away from someone like that.

However, not everyone owns a business. Not everyone has control of how high they can make it on the corporate ladder without being mentored by a male executive. Not everyone has a female executive (only 15 of the Fortune 500 have female executives) to support them and their growth.

I think there is only one thing we can do: Change the way we behave, as individuals, at work. Men, it is your responsiblity to show restraint and responsibility if you take on a leadership role and have female junior workers working for you. Sure an affair might be alluring, but it does more than wreak havoc at home. It has long-lasting effects on you, your colleague, your family, your career (and hers), and our society. And women? You have a responsibility not to sleep your way to the top (a Center for Work-Life Policy study shows 37 percent of women got to a leadership role through sex) and show the same kind of restraint as men. You want to be treated equally? Act like it.

What do you think?

About Gini Dietrich

Gini Dietrich is the founder and CEO of Arment Dietrich, an integrated marketing communications firm. She is the author of Spin Sucks, co-author of Marketing in the Round, and co-host of Inside PR. She also is the lead blogger at Spin Sucks and is the founder of Spin Sucks Pro. Join the Spin Sucks   community!

  • Your articulation is spot-on. You, successful in business (even w/Charles Arment who no doubt will have to make an appearance on 1 November for All-Souls Day) are a great role model for all, men and woman alike – you put your action/deed behind your words. Congrats on both counts.

  • One of the things that struck me in your article is the concept that “many more women take time off during work.” It’s this focus on time rather than results that makes the playing field so skewed for men and women. As a man who was in corporate for 17 years prior to starting my own business, I had to fight for an appropriate raise because the VP next door to me stayed until 9:00 p.m. every night. The reality was that he was having problems at home and it was a way to avoid addressing those problems.

    Your suggestions about sex are sage, but I’m afraid that they’re going to fall on many deaf ears. Sex is often used to fill the gap of emotional needs. Those needs often cause otherwise bright people to do really stupid things. Ascribing blame to one party or the other is a mindless activity since both parties are contributing to the problem. Having said that if you help even one person avoid the workplace sex trap, it was worth the effort.

    • Dale, I am in complete agreement that sex is often use to fill the gap of emotional needs and that it causes smart people to do stupid things. Knowing that and knowing with one blog post I can’t change it, perhaps we just ask that, if the need to have an affair arises, it happen outside of work?!

      Like many of the comments here, I think it’s ridiculous to reward the person who takes 16 hours to do the same amount of work as the person who can do it in 10 hours.

  • I agree that we ALL have a responsibility. Men & Women alike. It all boils down to respect, for yourself, your career, your family, your employees, employers and the reputation of other women & men that come after you.

    I never knew Arment was made up! I always wondered where that name came from and kept forgetting to ask!

    I’ve told you this before and I will say it again, thank you Gini for being a role model for all of us young women. I truly admire you for working hard, following your dream, being real and caring to help others succeed as well.


  • Thanks for addressing this subject, Ginny. Absolutely, everyone needs to take responsibility for us to stop thinking in “stereotypes”.

    The other point that I think that is frequently missed is that there is a difference between quality and quantity of work. Just because someone isn’t pulling an all-nighter, doesn’t mean they are being less effective.

  • Lauren Lorenzo

    So glad you wrote this post! As a recent college graduate, who more recently entered the workforce, I feel like you learn about all this stuff in Women and Gender Studies classes, but no one really believes it happens in the “real world”. I appreciate how you, a woman who is successfully in the working world, was able to write this post and shed some light on the truth!

  • This is so spot on! We have a firm we partner with that basically ignores me but will work hand in hand with my husband!

    Also, someone mentioned above about not getting a promotion that was awarded to a co-worker because they were working late. I think focusing on longer hours, or the potential a woman might be out more due to children is crazy! Why not look into why some of those workers need to work till 9, maybe the women are better time managers and are churning out better quality work in less hours!

    I also agree Gini, that it is mind blowing that some of these types of people exist in our society. I have 2 daughters, and it is people like that, that drive me even more to make them strong and independent!

    • Jennifer, YES! You made the “quality vs. quantity” argument for me. Never understood the logic of penalizing any employee for doing a good job, being more efficient, more effective vs. those who do less in more time (or the appearance of more time). Thanks.

  • Sigh, no the playing field is not level but what I find outrageous is our attitudes about work in this country. The US takes less time off from work than other developed nations. Why is there a focus on time worked rather than knowledge, skills, abilities and results? We can’t have it all and that’s a fact. All of us make choices in our lives at various milestones. Having it all is a big fat lie, we prioritize as needed which means that something else becomes less of a priority. However, those choices should not affect how much you earn.

  • Great post Gini. I am very conscious of the gender equality issue in the workplace as the father of two talented and high achieving daughters, one of whom is a new college grad and entered the workplace this past June. Being away from the corporate world for the past dozen years I don’t see this issue at play as much, but I vividly recall many instances of the “old boys” mentality of the corporate world. Hopefully we will continue to erode these differences and unfair double standards.

  • Gini:
    Your final paragraph precisely sums up the fundamental behavior changes necessary to keep the risque boardroom stories out of the WSJ. Is it that exceptional to expect our executives to simply behave themselves?
    Also, after reading the NYT article you reference, the conclusion that their research revealed isn’t that women are paid 23% for the same jobs, but that women who work full-time make 23% less than men who work full-time. There is a huge difference. Even feminist economists acknowledge that today’s pay disparities are almost entirely the result of women’s different life choices—what they study in school, where they work, and how they balance home and career.
    I don’t doubt that there are employers who would attempt to pay Jill 77 cents for the job that he pays Jack $1.00, but we have laws that allow Jill to take that employer to court. And if it were true that women earn much less for performing the exact same job, then as a company owner, why wouldn’t I simply hire an entire staff of women and gain an immediate 20+% cost edge over my competitors?
    Is it fair that women sacrifice career advancement more than men to raise children? No more fair than men experiencing 12x the number of on the job fatalities than women. But the unassailable good news is that American women are the freest, best educated and most self-determining people in the world and company owners like you, Gini, are changing it every day for the better.

    • John Heaney commented that, “the unassailable good news is that American women are the freest, best educated and most self-determining people in the world…”

      Sadly, that statement is incorrect.

      The US doesn’t even place among the top 10 countries for women.

      The NY Times has a great breakdown of several different rankings, and the logic behind each.

      The results? “Scandinavian countries that have made gender equality an explicit goal and implemented policies such as universal child care and paid family leaves almost always land on the top of the list. The United States lags far behind.”

      Marie Claire showcases the World Economic Forum’s ranking of Sweden as the #1 place for women. (Lots of pop-up ads, sorry — but it’s a great read!)

  • Right on, Gini. I’m a working mom who’s just managed to wrangle a working-from-home arrangement from my employer after 15 years of hard work and long hours. So far, my boss and colleagues have been pretty supportive of my new arrangement, but it’s still tough to battle the perception that I’m a slacker because I need more time to be at home with my kids. Based on my own observations, I would argue that the working moms in my organization are some of the most productive workers in the office — we hit the ground running in the morning, multi-task like nobody’s business, and PRODUCE until we have to leave to take care of family matters (what some of us refer to as the “second shift”). It’s maddening that some people equate “time seen hanging around in the office” with “productivity” … and that time is then rewarded with more pay. So glad you’ve started this conversation, Gini. We’ve come a long way, but there’s still a long way to go!

    • Ann, you raise some really good points! There is a need to erase judgment about how hard someone is working. As a widow without children (and before as a wife with no children) I get the opposite where people seem to assume that I have loads of extra time and I become the dumping ground. No matter our marital or child status we all have lives and should stop the silly little divisions, it’s pointless.

      • Ann and Karen, like Carol and others have pointed out, as well, the hanging around the office mentality is crazy. I had a boss that pretty much said if we weren’t in the office on Saturdays, we weren’t eligible for promotions or raises. I was there all the time. I remember getting pulled over one night, on my way home at 2 a.m., because I was so tired, I was swerving on the road. The cop thought I’d been drinking. I hadn’t been – I just hadn’t had any sleep for days (maybe two or three hours a night). Not only does that make you non-productive, it’s not safe. Let’s stop looking at how many hours people work and more at how much they accomplish in the time they do put in.

  • I have nothing to add to your thorough and insightful words for women. I’m very glad that you write this way and just be your successful self – if for no other reason than my 14 year old daughter can look to women like you for a brighter future for herself.

    But I have to add a bit for other guys out there like me. We’ve generally muddled through the tremendous changes in gender roles, sometimes setting things back and usually not getting too much in the way. But what have we done to advance the cause – and define what it means to be a man in a world that our wives and daughters can be proud of?

    Most guys think there is little in this for them, but they are terribly wrong. If nothing else we have to be a part of the progress if we’re going to have stable, loving families that can communicate with each other. When things do go bad, you may want to ditch the whole “career” thang as I did for a few years to be the presence in your kids’ lives that takes a lot of effort for a divorced Dad.

    Trust me, it’s all worth it. Sitting on the sidelines – or, especially, tolerating the BS that pushes the cause back – is just not an option. Men have a lot to gain, too, as we step away from the narrow little role as provider that Willie Loman found to be a dead end.

    What we have to gain is a decent, enriching, and fun life apart from the traditional roles that wear like a tie wrapped too tight. Women will succeed more and more in this world because there has been far too much talent and energy wasted for far too long. Don’t just deal with it – make it a part of what you stand for. It’s more than worth it in ways many of us might have trouble imagining until we bravely take it on.

    • Erik, I just learned something new about you! I didn’t know you have a 14 year old daughter! And thank you…thank you for your stance and for your call to men to help change the world for the better!

  • Karrie

    Great post! To go a step further, I really believe we all just have to stop thinking of each other so much as men and women and more as people/co-workers. That means cutting out the “well isn’t that just like a man…” or “you know how women are…” comments whether talking about work or personal lives. It means not assuming that a women in more sensitive and a man is more authoritative nor using those assumptions to determine roles and responsibilities. It means giving men and women equal leeway when a child needs to be picked up from school or an aging parent is ill. And, as others have said, valuing work product over time spent at the desk.

    Trust me, it can be done. I’ve been fortunate enough to experience it (though, sadly, I’ve experienced the opposite as well).

    • Karrie, This hits the underlying problem, the mindset that is still so pervasive in society, in people, in the workplace. We SEE race, gender, ethnicity instead of .. people; we see what makes us different rather than what makes us the same. We assign value judgments and bias based on this rather than the individual’s job performance.

      • Karrie, I agree with Davina in that you hit the underlying problem. Taking it a step further, did you happen to see the Dateline program about the color of people and how kids stereotyped them? They took a bunch of five year olds and showed them stick figures colored brown, beige, black, white, etc. Then they had them say what kind of person each one was. It was STARTLING to hear them say the brown and black ones were “bad.” In today’s day and age! These are the people who will be running our country some day.

  • Gini, First thanks for this. I’ll be linking back to it tomorrow. Second, you had me right until the end.

    “Show the same kind of restraint as men.” I don’t think men are more restrained than women, or vice versa. Your post is about how they’re paid and judged by different standards, and you cite a recent sex scandal? I get what you’re saying, “Don’t crap where you eat.” How about showing restraint of a professional, period.

    To play Devil’s advocate a bit: I’ve worked with and am friends with so many hard working mothers, many single. As someone without kids, I have no problems with flex time, teleworking, etc. But I’ve seen it go both ways.

    Just as women (parents) are penalized for having kids, for having to leave early etc., they *sometimes* get that pass too. Not having kids meant I’d have to stay late, be questioned if I wanted to leave early (as I’m more efficient, had my work done). I don’t think so, and YES I argued the same with male coworkers when I’d get stuck doing their jobs.

    I also took many a non-smoking break in my day, as what’s good for the goose, was good for this gander. So to speak.

    Doing the job, delivering the results, that’s the sign of a professional. Forget the man/woman. FWIW.

    • Ah Davina. Not what I mean. What I meant was to show the same restraint I recommended men show. Sorry if that’s not how you took it – I wrote this at 5:00 this morning AND I was all fired up so was typing as quickly as my fingers could fly across the keyboard.

      • Yeah, I read the context of the sentences before.. knew what you were trying to say to both genders: “keep it professional.”

        It just reads that you’re coming down “differently.” You tell men one thing (about leadership roles, not having affairs); you tell women another (not sleeping their way to the top), tell them that in order to be treated equally, they should “act like it.” But the men in your examples weren’t acting professionally???

        I tease and gripe because it’s NOT equal, the “rules” are different and it annoys me. Sorry. Just how I read that line.

        • That’s not at all what I meant. I think I was reacting to the HBR article that said men are in a position of mentoring junior female colleagues and women are in a position of relying on men to help them climb the corporate ladder. So, when I wrote that line, it was with that in mind … if men are mentoring junior female colleagues, don’t make sex a prerequisite for promotion. And if women are relying on men to help them climb the corporate ladder, find a different ladder to climb if sex is a prerequisite. We’re all responsible for making this change…and we can only do it as individuals.

          That being said, there are plenty of women who ARE in a power position and could require sex as a prerequisite for promotion among their junior male colleagues. That just doesn’t happen as often.

  • I’m glad to see you bringing this up on your blog, Gini. As you know I look up to you because you’re successful, smart, friendly and positive, and it doesn’t hurt that as a woman you’re a role model I can identify with more easily than I might with a male executive. The world needs more Ginis!

    In my own career, I’ve had both male and female managers, and I’ve rarely encountered any sort of pervasive sexism. I did have one male manager who habitually shouted down the opinions of women, but to be perfectly honest I never noticed until it was pointed out to me after he was no longer supervising me. I just sit in my corner, do my job, and if someone doesn’t like me I’m prone to assume it’s their personal problem (and I try to change my behavior if I notice I’m doing something upsetting to them) rather than something about my gender.

    More upsetting to me on a personal level than the actual wage gap is the growing trend toward resentment of the very concept of equal pay for equal work. These repulsive and discriminatory opinions tend currently to be expressed mostly online, but as demonstrated by the post you linked, they’re creeping into mainstream and generally respected organizations.

    There’s a pervasive and damaging assumption that if a woman earns less than a man, her skills or commitment are to blame. Perhaps that’s in a way true (she might not, for example, have the skill of demanding a raise or negotiating a salary offer) but it shouldn’t be difficult to recognize that dynamic as a function of male-dominated workplaces. When women are in management, they tend (in my admittedly limited experience) to manage other women in a way that recognizes their socialized tendency to placate superiors and avoid seeming to be motivated only by money. Women (again, in my limited experience) don’t make lowball salary offers expecting the candidate to fight for a higher salary if they really deserve it; they offer a fair amount and the candidate can decline or accept. They don’t wait for a woman to come in with “dukes up” looking for a raise; they provide them on a reasonable schedule.

    Gender diversity, along with all other sorts of diversity, is a benefit to any workplace. People are first and foremost individuals, not representatives of groups, but nonetheless woman and men tend to communicate and manage differently. When gender diversity is lacking in management, female employees at lower levels in the company tend to suffer from institutions not designed to embrace their strengths.

    A similar assumption is that a lack of female executives means a lack of worthy female candidates. “Why,” they whine, “Should we pass over the best candidate to hire a woman because she’s a woman?”

    Trouble is, this is nearly always a complete hypothetical. There’s no actual best male candidate being considered against a bevy of unqualified women. The assumption, though, is that if a woman is hired in part because the company needs more female managers, there must be a better-qualified man somewhere who was passed over. Because, of course, a woman can’t rise to leadership on her own merits, right?

    As a 20-something woman myself, I place a big portion of the blame for this dynamic squarely on my generation. Hell, I myself got to age 14 or so thinking “feminist” was a word for a woman who thought she was better than men, and that didn’t sit right with me. It was only when I shocked my grandmother nearly into catatonia by declaring in all the wisdom of my teenagerhood, “I’m not a feminist!” that I noticed it didn’t mean anything of the sort to anyone but Rush Limbaugh and his ilk.

    People my age grew up not hearing very many positive things about feminism, and getting accused of “playing the victim card” if we ever mentioned an inequality between women and men. Instead of fighting back, many young women have just gone along and kept their heads down. And now there’s this burgeoning anti-feminist movement cropping up in public spaces where a man once might have THOUGHT awful things about women, but he wouldn’t have dared to say them lest he be skewered by the tough as nails ladies just waiting for a chance to give misogynists what-for.

    Of course, this post proves that there are still tough-as-nails ladies prepared to do exactly that, and they’re prepared to do it in heels and with perfectly applied makeup, too. We just need MORE of them, as executives, business owners, nonprofit directors, Senators, and as President someday soon. (But an actual women’s rights advocate, please, not She Who Shall Not Be Named.) And my generation needs to hurry up and get on the bus–stop placating people who oppose our rights and start being willing to say “Hey, I’m a feminist, and I don’t hate men, but I do feel I deserve equal pay for equal work. Is that a problem for you?”

    • Jelena, I’m not wearing heels OR make-up today…it was everything I could just to get out of my cycling clothes and into jeans this morning. 🙂 BUT you’re right. We need more female leaders and, to Troy’s point, the sooner, the better!

  • Gini, I’m glad to see this post, you put it very well and it’s important. It’s too easy for all of us to look around, superficially, and see things as more equal than they used to be. And maybe they are; but they aren’t equal. And they should be.

    You and other influential women need to keep pointing this out, and we men in the workplace need to keep listening, until it’s no longer true.


  • If you don’t like something, go change it & don’t let anyone stop you.

    No man will ever bother to fix that 23% pay gap – myself included. It works in our favor, and most of us aren’t masochists.

    But there are dozens of reasons we won’t stop women from closing it themselves, i.e. we know you’re on the morally-correct side even though it benefits us, we’re easily distracted, etc.

    Paychecks are primarily determined by the people who write them.
    When more women write the checks, the wage gap will close.

    Considering you’re running your own business, setting your own salary, hiring who you want & paying them what you want, you’re definitely on the right side of all this.
    Go kick some ass, Gini. Or keep doing it, since you already are.

    • Troy, I love the word masochist. 🙂 I also love your thinking around the idea that men won’t bother to fix it. Honest…and very likely true. I don’t think I’m being paid fairly for the job I’m doing, but that’s not at all about the fact that I’m female. It’s about business growth and seeing the bigger picture and the rewards down the road. So if more women can realize the major upside, perhaps we’ll change this, one company at a time.

  • I have such strong feelings on this it’s hard sometimes to even discuss it.

    I was recently talking to a good friend, who for 4 months was told he had to do two jobs–because there was a woman out on maternity leave. He was not complaining, just saying it was tough. I was wondering how he could not feel some annoyance at the colleague that had the baby–and yet whose “fault” is it that my friend had to do 2 jobs??? By not having a better “system” for pregnancy & childbirth the organization create the sense that certain employees are being treated with favoritism, when in fact it is just life happening while we work. And life does keep happening, even when we work! And some of us are men and some our women–that will never change.

    • Laura, such a great example of the flip side of the coin! No matter who the person is “filling” in, it’s not a great position to put a team member. We’re all doing more with less right now, but not having a back-up plan for the woman out on maternity leave is just a bad business decision.

  • Gini, thank you so much for this post. Not only did you tackle a topic near and dear to my heart, you demonstrated that you won’t be treated like a second-class citizen. I love it.

    The sexism I’ve encountered in the workplace has been a little different. I’m a young, female communications professional, yet somehow men are always mistaking me for an administrative assistant. From conversations I’ve had with other young, female communications professionals, this is a common occurrence. Somehow, I’m expected to do my job (which I’ve worked pretty hard to be good at), AND manage men’s lives. Wow!

    • Jenn! I AM FLABBERGASTED!! I can’t think of a time that happened to me. I’m floored.

  • Gini, Gotcha (can’t subreply again). “We’re all responsible for making this change…and we can only do it as individuals.” I totally agree, it’s important for everyone to realize that. Like you replied to Karrie, it starts with changing those inherent, underlying stereotypes and biases.

  • Love that you’re never afraid to stir up some strong opinions Gini!

    This is one area that makes me so passionate and excited to be an entrepreneur – like you, I hold the cards to be an awesome employer to women. Everyone on my team is female, just by chance but I have to say I agree with you that moms seem to work twice as hard!

    I think change will be lead by men and women like us that are building equal workplaces, one business at a time.

    • Laura, LOVE seeing you here! And your email today about telling clients you can’t be Sherlock Holmes and then forgetting to update your community about yourself made me laugh out loud!

  • I had no idea the Arment in your company name was made up! (I read the other post(I would have been livid too)) I’ve been meaning to ask you who that was, but I keep forgetting… shoes, jewelry, PR, wine, dogs, ETC are so much more interesting LOL

    As for the glass ceiling.. I think I have had a career like yours… There weren’t and maybe still aren’t a LOT of women in the IT field, but as far as I know, I have always made the same as the men… lead teams and projects and never had a problem.

    The only issue that has come up is sex – both actual sex and the banter, joking and innuendos of sex. Personally, I can banter and joke with the best of them… I don’t get embarrassed and I hold my own… but it does take that adjustment period on finding out who you can REALLY talk to – While some if it is fun (and sometimes very informative) I waffle back and forth on appropriateness… In a cubicle environment, no way, unless you KNOW everyone is ok with it, and even then you can get in trouble… but after work, drinks, happy hour type stuff – you could still get burned, but you should be aware enough to know who is cool with what discussions (isn’t just limited to sex)

    ok – I went off on a tangent… sorry 🙂 but I’m not deleting it LOL

  • Gini,
    I don’t have much to add to the great conversation that’s been happening in your comment stream, but I will add two semi-related things.

    One, a post I wrote back in June. Graduation season encouraged me to share an incident that happened to me during my first year in corporate America. Thankfully, I’ve never even considered “sleeping my way to the top”, and I never will. But, sexism in the workplace has been an issue – on more than one occasion.

    Like you, I don’t have children (I also don’t have a husband!). Because I didn’t have a family, there was an expectation that I should work longer and be on the road more than people who did have families.

    I’ve since made changes in my career and have been in control of setting the expectations others have of me. I’m in a much better place than I was early on in my career. I know that others are still struggling though, and I applaud you for bringing attention to this taboo topic.

    • Kerri, Had to chime in on your excellent comment. I’ve always hated the argument that as a woman, if you don’t have children then you “don’t have a family.” That is offensive to me.

      When my mother and sister worked as RNs, same unit/hospital.. the bosses would actually tell my unmarried, no-kid sister that she didn’t have a family as rationalization for making her work every holiday.. with our mother standing right there! Ditto our mother, with grown children = “no family.”

      I may not have kids, but I have siblings, parents, cousins (with kids), aunt and uncles, grandparents.. close friends who ARE family. FWIW.

  • bg

    With improvements in lifestyle also come the need for deeper and greater gratification! Its nice when you can bust a nut without having to feel guilty or dirty

  • ginidietrich

    @bg HA! LOL!! I am totally quoting you on that!

  • bg

    @ginidietrich @bg It goes deeper…just try to imagine the joy of sharing minds. The joy of having one’s trust validated by another is immeasurable!