Times change. Often, it changes the things we most wish would stay the same.
Most recently, the winds of change are touching a place that I’ve held quite dear…Twitter.
I’m beginning to come to terms with the reality that, perhaps for me, Twitter just isn’t ever going to be what it used to be.
Following are the top three reasons (I think) Twitter is beginning to suck.
Today’s “Twitter newbies” will have a very different experience with the tool than the one I had when I started a few years ago. The reality is, it’s just not the same atmosphere and there’s more change on the horizon, especially as Apple has introduced the integration of Twitter and iOS 5.
Change is inevitable. I don’t fault anyone for changing the way they use the tool or developers for trying to advance it. “Twitter is going to change” was something I heard going in, and I knew it to be true then. It used to make me a little sad, but now I’ve just come to accept it.
What do you think?
Kary Delaria is a digital PR strategist and social media research analyst for Kane Consulting, a communications firm specializing in integrating social media into marketing and communications processes. She can be reached via email or well, still on Twitter.
Twitter’s unfiltered Timeline has become nearly unmanageable as it is rapidly filled with Tweets. Especially during the busiest Tweeting hours, it seems that as soon as a Tweet hits the Timeline, it is forever lost in an infinitely deep Tweet abyss. To provide a comparison, Facebook’s Newsfeed is much simpler and easier to navigate, which might have to do with the algorithm designed to show posts from users you care about most.
When I show and tell the benefits of social networking in classes I teach, the overwhelming number of questions about wanting to join or wanting to improve their online experience involves Facebook. Few ask about Twitter, if they even care.
I sometimes wonder about deleting my Twitter account. I did it once in the past.
Hi Kary ;)
I agree with you on what you've said above. I also believe people are not producing new content but rather replicating or 'refreshing' top-tweeted articles. Is it the issue of time consuming? Maybe. But I do believe we can still largely benefit from following other peers from our industry.
As I mentioned you in my e-mails before, I'm developing free web collaboration platform for PR and Media Members - Evoque (www.evoquepr.com), which (I hope) will reduce repetitive and low quality content such as news releases and will help both media and PR pros to find their influential partners easier. Please forgive me for promoting Evoque here, but I guess this is the way to get your attention back ;)
Have a nice day and let me know when you have a few minutes for a chat.
Kamila
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interesting read, still turning in my head. three first thoughts:
(1) Saturate before using., or else the good stuff evaporates: Before Twitter became "The Twitter," it was hard to figure out why (not so much how) to use the sucker. Even if it won't become a dominant platform, the underlying concept is more accessible and will likely spread in ways more relevant to more folks.
(2) Choosing between an echo chamber or a shadow box: Trickier. May be a lot of noise and haste to post, but there's a comforting certainty attached to knowing something will stick, bounce around, and ultimately lead to connected dots; points of discovery; and means to stoke content nodes. Beats having only one source, one path, one voice to follow. When it gets to crowded by #hasbeenmetooits that's a good time to put down stakes to improve or cut out to build community and channels elsewhere.
(3) Engagement: Even trickier. Thinking there's many deeper issues of purpose, expectations, and obligations for using such a service (too deep for mid-week). People will engage without ever truly committing. They can commit without every truly participating. They can participate without any true investment in the outcome. Won't matter which place or space?
To me, Twitter is one giant party that I enter from time to time and scan the room for the interesting folks that I want to engage with. We have a conversation and then it's time to leave the party for other things. I don't ever see this going away-- it all depends on who you want to hang with at the party. :)
I have never played the Twitter number game. I know many who do, but I see no point nor any advantage.
I agree with you and when you are in a niche or same area of interest for awhile, you keep reading and hearing the same old stuff and get kinda tired of it.
I never understood how you could follow 20,000 anyway. I'm extremely selective about who I follow, and who's following. It's like the rest of PR today: you have to target your niche market.
@prlab Agree. Although, I do think it's hard not to reciprocate a follow to someone who seems genuinely interesting or who works in my industry.
@scottishwildcat Interesting tactic...sort of an "audition." I might have to experiment with that. Thanks for sharing!
Back in 2007, when the economy was just beginning to go south, politicians and some economists were saying that we were talking ourselves into a recession. In that case, I felt it was rather irresponsible.
However, in regards to Twitter and other facets of the online world, I really do think we are spreading negativity and then complaining about how negative the online world is. I've been very guilty of this myself. "Oh, the online world sucks. Now let me tweet out a post about how the online world is so dreadfully depressing."
I'm not taking a hit at this post at all - I think all of your points are valid. But I think we are leaning too much toward complaining and too little towards molding the online world the way we want it to be. If there is incivility, protest by being civil and tweeting as an example of how people should act on the platform. If you are finding the vibes too negative, spread some positive (of which there is a lot, by the way. Where else can you talk simultaneously to people in Boston, Australia, and Malaysia?).
My feeling is that right now there is so much REAL awful stuff happening in the world - those of us who are lamenting how icky Twitter is geting just seem to be disconnected from the world as it really matters. The sad thing is that we could use our energy to mold Social Media into a tool for bettering the world, but I fear we are passing that opportunity up.
My 2¢ - great post!
@margieclayman Point taken. And, you're right...I could have said the exact same three things with a different twist and title, but I chose a title that paid homage to the tittle of this blog. Also...I wonder, with a more positive twist, would as many people have reacted and discussed? Interesting thoughts. Appreciate your 2¢.
Funny, I've been saying almost the same thing for the past couple of months. To me, everything about Twitter has changed since I joined in the Summer of 2009, but the biggest thing is the noise and who is generating it (myself included).
It seems today's "Thought Leaders" rarely engage on Twitter, but are happy to flood the timeline with scheduled tweets to remind us that they are still there. Problem is, the content is the same old, same old. Nothing new, nothing fresh. Just "yes, I'm still here" stuff. No thanks. I have just spent the past week (on and off) cleaning my account out. I've been unfollowing people who don't engage but are happy to broadcast.
There is one thing I would like to add to your list - there seems to be a lack of civility on Twitter lately. People are arguing, fighting and bullying others. I guess it was bound to happen, after all, you can't be friends with everyone.
"The thrill is gone." Well, at least for me it is. In an effort to curb the amount of noise that I contribute to the stream, I have cut my time on Twitter way back, and I don't miss it at all.
Thanks Kary, very good post.
@Sherree_W Thank you. And yes...lack of civility, anywhere, is unfortunate. Fortunately, there are those who still make me feel good about humanity. :-)
@KaryD I think you’re RIGHT ON here! (I could probably argue the use of the word ‘suck’ – though I assume that’s hyperbole designed to be a nod to the name of this blog.) But the broader point remains. Twitter is evolving & changing, and for those of you nostalgic for the old days, that may not be comfortable. Your observations are absolutely right on, the question becomes how to change it?
As someone newer to Twitter, I’m sure that I have had a fundamentally different experience than you had when you started. Some of the ‘Twitterati’ (or Twit-lebrites, if you prefer) were probably easy to connect with back when you started … and 5,000 or 30,000 or 100,000 followers later, have simply been forced to tune out most of the noise – which I understand. And yet, the NEW magic is actually not being created by the Twitterati ( agreeing with @digitalvision here!) You’re torn between two worlds.
I suspect that many people in your seat had a reality sneak up on them: You’re only one person and holy cow, that’s a lot of people to manage! And those people are needy! At the end, I believe QUALITY is still better than quantity. The noise? It’s controllable (it’s an ‘unfollow’ button). The fresh stuff? It’s out there – but hard to hear because of the echo chamber. The badge of honor of a followers list in the four, five, six digits is a double edged sword. (All those @ mentions?!?!) How many people can you legitimately interact with? Just like an intimate dinner party vs. a stadium concert -- meaningful interactions and quantity of participants are almost always inversely proportional.
Twitter is High School, a constantly rotating door of newcomers and those who are graduating/moving on. Each ‘class’ has their own personality, their own celebrities. Some of us Freshmen are pretty damn fascinating – but the Seniors are so absorbed in fawning over their own football team captain and chatting up the cheerleading squad’s latest accomplishment that they hardly notice what the Freshmen are up to.
Just like High School, most Seniors are too busy to reach out to interact with the Freshmen (even when the Freshmen try). And accounts become less valuable as they begin to ‘graduate’ and move on to something else, and the Freshman become Sophomores … and so on. Circle of Life. Maybe some of the new freshmen will have equally meaningful, if different, experiences by learning from those who have gone before us. For me, that’s most certainly going to be a more selective and ‘juried’ approach, especially as I read Seniors’ reflections like yours. The TOOL is still powerful, but it requires a different level of management/energy/focus to create the magic you remember. Thanks for sharing your insights, and feel free to come hang out with the Freshmen anytime when you want to relive the ‘good ole days’ again. But we know you’re pretty busy.
@KelleeMagee First, THANK YOU for being the only one to realize that yes, my choice of the word "sucks" was hyperbole and hat tip to the title of this blog.
I appreciate all of your thoughts. And, actually, in my opinion, it's some of the "freshman" (as you say) that make Twitter worth sticking around for. I could have gone on about more of these things, but the post would have been too long. Alas, maybe a follow-up some day.
@KaryD I get it - as these tools evolve and the group participating in the conversation changes, it becomes hard to recreate the magic honeymoon phase felt in the early days. I think your feelings are 100% a part of the natural life cycle, and good for you for actually acknowledging it! You know what they say, 'better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.' I submit that your 'old Twitter' (or parts of it) MAY still be out there -- if you want to take the time & invest the energy to find it again. To grow the magic anew, we sometimes need to prune back dead wood and give the fresh green stuff room to breathe.
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What a great post and comments. Thanks @BethHarte for sharing on Facebook, so I could join in. I love Twitter. Joined in 2007 and haven't looked back. I agree that I notice the negatives that @KaryD points out in the post but I still find so much value in Twitter. However, I spend far less time on Twitter than I once did, partly because of work and partly because of the Facebook groups I have become involved in. I never saw this coming but the fact remains that the conversations are more satisfying and stimulating in the Facebook groups right now. Sigh...
@allenmireles Yup - even with the negatives, there are sill good things happening on Twitter. And, I agree with you on Facebook. Never thought I'd say that, if you'd have asked me just six months ago!
I did a mass unfollow and refollow a couple months ago and it really helped. It was influenced by an interview we shot at Future Midwest with Huffington Post writer Jason Schmitt - if you're following the same old that everyone else is, you're NOT going to come up with something original. It's called "What the tech community can learn from Detroit Rock and Roll" and here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVHlQ0YEko
If you're using Twitter not through the eyes of a communications professional but one who has a passion for something, it's getting better than ever. See, I've unfollowed a lot of "thought leaders." I don't really need 50 tweets retweeting Mashable. What I need - and what I found my clients, my friends, and my soul need - are new ideas in the things I'm passionate in.
Twitter is hitting the maturity point. Most people in the real world who talk about other topics than digital use it way different than the early adopters did, and that's what's needed. Find your true passions and go with that. Maybe some of these thought leaders should stop worrying so much about themselves as a "brand channel" and be more of a "idea channel."
After all, as a person the idea of perpetuating yourself as a talking robot seems completely antithetical to the whole original point of social media anyway, doesn't it? I've reformed my usage to become an idea (and laugh) exchange - being a person. And it all falls into place. And it doesn't suck anymore.
p.s. - I've noticed the people who are really doing, really making waves in the social space - many are too busy doing it. The revolution that's happening is beginning to not be tweeted as much as it was before for a litany of reasons - everything from the NDA, to the "I have too much to do with my client accounts," to "I'm older now and I have a family to pay attention to," to my personal favorite, "I wanna go enjoy sunlight and get my head out of my damn phone." :)
This is an interesting perspective for me. I was one of those late adopters of Twitter. I really didn't see the point when I first got my account. Now I love it because of the networking opportunities. I can see the saturation argument. However, it's still great for having a conversation with people who have like interests.
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Okay, I surrender. I'm going to give in and comment *before* reading the entirety of the comments. Ironically, it's the massive length and depth of the comment section here that makes me more inclined to side with you on the declining usefulness of twitter.For about 2 years (2009/10) Twitter seemed to suck the life out of most of the comments sections I used to love. Instead of commenting, people were just RT'ing links and "sharing" them on Twitter. But I've seen a resurgence this year in the "long form conversation" like the one below.It turns out that when you scrawl graffiti on the giant Twitter-wall, it's gone just as if someone spray-painted over your stuff - into the giant wall of noise. There are still many who haven't noticed that Twitter is *disposable* media. Who do you know who says "oh! We were talking about this on Twitter a couple of months ago - let me go see if I can pull that up!"? But this comment? It will be Google-worthy a year from now, or 2, or even more. But 140 character conversations or sound-bite blasts? They are so much tissue in water...
@LucretiaPruitt Thanks for bringing a fresh perspective. And yes, there's definitely some irony at work, here. :-)
Hey Kary,
I know someone has me thinking when it takes 24 hours to reply...
I came to Twitter as a place to hang out in Jan 2008. I flirted with it some in late 2007 but it did not stick with me. For me that was a more fun time than now. We shared stuff. We were not always so serious, worrying about branding or trying to look cool.
Most people coming to Twitter are worrying about those things so I think some of the transparency is gone.
As time has gone on I rely more and more on lists so much that when I follow someone now I try to put them in a category right away (if I can). Here are my current lists that I have a column for:
All Stars - A "small" group I want to know what they are saying. These are biz & personal.
MN Friends – similar to All Stars but a slightly larger group that I am not as close to
MN – one step out from the above
Recruiter/HR Minnesota
Recruiter/HR National
Careers – see what folks are talking about (although rarely is anything new)
News – local and national
Sports – most of my college football and ESPN stuff
National – these are “cool kids” in the marketing/PR scene
As Twitter has gained wider traction in the Recruiter/HR space there are trends. The national folks (and there are a lot of them now) are a lot like an echo chamber.
There are now just enough local colleagues who are on to keep a dialogue going. This feels like it did when I first started Twitter. People talking to each other and sharing stuff. Very little echo, no “cool kids” and no egos. I can’t say that for the national scene.
Twitter has been almost always a local thing for me and as you know we are blessed to have some really smart, engaging, funny and interesting users here in MSP. We use it for work, personal, staying in touch, etc.
I think it helps that we see each other on occasion.
Maybe it helps that my industry is mostly still trying to figure this out so we have less echo to go around but it is getting more frequent and louder for sure.
OK, now I am rambling...
@MNHeadhunter Hey, ramble away, my friend. I use lists, too, but sometimes wonder if I'm getting to narrow and missing the point? I guess, the answer to that could be that I had the wrong point to begin with, or, that my point needs to change with the landscape. And, yes, to each industry will be their individual growing speeds, pains, and success stories. Happy that you're finding such great value.
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@KaryD @MNHeadhunter I do not think you had the wrong point to begin with. I think this "thing" has changed and it feels different to you, me and many others. I frequently ask the "cool kids" who are the 10 people you follow that are the next "cool kids". I get a lot of new, interesting information from them with a slightly different perspective. It adds "new life" to the experience.
Kary - I hear you, but not sure all your criticism is valid/fair.
1. How many people in this country DIDN'T watch The Soprano's? Or eat at Olive Garden? Doesn't invalidate those entities. Twitter isn't for everyone, and never will be.
2. It absolutely can be an echo chamber, if you let it. Find lists for areas that you don't know about but are interested in. Follow those people for a while.
3. The Circle of Life. People drop out, new people enter. I'm sure in high school and colleges around the country is the next Chris Brogan, @BadBanana and even @Sh*tmydad says. This year was my first time at SXSW and all I heard was how much better it used to be. I had a great time. I can't control or worry about how great something was in the past, I just try to help make it better now.
I'd be more interested in hearing your thoughts on how Twitter can continue to be great, rather than why you think it sucks.
If Twitter is an echo chamber for you -- that is, the people you follow are tweeting the same stuff -- then unfollow them. Pure and simple.
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@Ari Herzog not really that "simple" for some of us actually. You see, there was a point when I followed the "herd" and followed back a lot of people. By the time I realized that I was getting past the point of meaningful engagement? I was past the point of meaningful engagement. Now, I have over 10,000 people on my "following" list. So how do I unfollow them without a) doing it en masse and losing a lot of people I really *do* want to be following - which means I have to start over and figure out *which* of those 10k are worth refollowing, or b) doing it one-by-one and doing a quick assessment of each.That second one? Let's say I only took 30 seconds to click through to their stream, evaluate, either keep or unfollow and then move on to the next. If I had only 10k accounts to go through (I have more than that but have about twice as many followers - so I'm sticking with just eliminating, not adding) 10,000 at 30 seconds = 300,000 seconds -> divide by 60 = 5,000 minutes -> divide by 60 = 83.3 hours. So if it only took me 30 seconds to click through each, evaluate and move on, if I didn't take any breaks and worked at it 8 hours a day non-stop? It would still take me more than 10 days just to look through them.Personally? I don't find that simple.
@LucretiaPruitt @Ari Herzog I didn't follow that many but there were times where I would follow all people from a list someone posted, like "60 best female bloggers". Eventually I would realize the list is not something I want to follow, but I already followed 60 there and 100 on another blog and 75 on a third one.
What I did then, I would just scan my twitter stream from time to time (I use Tweetdeck and this was my first column). I kinda remember images of the profiles easy so I would notice certain profiles always tweeting links or stuff I am not interested in.
I unfollowed more than 500 people like this over time. I don't sweat over it, just unfollow when someone posts stuff I don't care about.
With 10.000 people it will be a loooot harder, but you can always remove at least 3.000 of those just by looking at their profile images (rappers with no shirrts) or bios (no bios).
Hope you manage to get through this, I don't want you to spend 80+ hours doing it :)
@LucretiaPruitt Why do you focus on the 2nd option and not the 1st? Look, you know who you engage with the most. So add them to a private list and then unfollow everyone. You can then refollow the people on your list, and continue pseudo-fresh.
@Ari Herzog you made an assumption there in error. I am a huge believer in KISS - but it's a design and development principal - not a process.
You might note that I said "it seems you are..." where you went with "you're not."
At this point the conversation seems to be devolving to a point where nothing of consequence lies in it. Let's be done with it.
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@Ari Herzog Ah now, see... You made a huge assumption that the value of my Twitterstream is solely in "engagement." if that were the case, then why follow anyone? I could just @ people and not worry about it. But that's *not* why I follow other people - I love the quality of a stream that has multiple viewpoints. I refuse to use the List functionality on Twitter - it's just the pretense that you are following people when you really aren't. I also tried creating a "just listening" account once, spent some time trying to build from the ground up. That is what convinced me of the futility of it - my stream there was surprisingly predictable.
It seems you are determined that there is a "simple" solution for everyone - I disagree.
@LucretiaPruitt @Ari Herzog Lucretia - the problem that you admittedly created for yourself here is an EXCELLENT cautionary tale for us Freshmen! (FWIW, I saw a mention of "Tweepi" this morning as a great sortable/searchable/quality-based unfollowing tool ... though I haven't had to use it because I've been adding very very judiciously - based on 'horror stories' like the 10 days of work one you just shared).
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Every day, I find that Twitter is as good or better than the day before. I can complain about some of the silly problems with the service, I can complain about people who I think are "doin it wrong!" but when it comes down to it, I get so much for every minute I spend on it that it's the one social network I couldn't give up. Facebook, Linkedin, everything else pales in the shadow of Twitter's utility.@KaryD - The biggest thing that jumps out at me is the point that to you, Twitter is beginning to suck. Twitter is going to be a reflection of the people you follow, end of story. If Twitter sucks, then the people you follow suck, for whatever reason. Is it the Thought Leaders? Find better Thought Leaders. If the old ones aren't putting out content, if they're not engaging, why follow them? Have old acquaintances and friends drifted apart? Follow new ones. If they ask why you unfollowed, you can point out that the last time they said hi to you was months ago.
What makes Twitter so much better than all the other social networks is the asymmetry - Everyone who interests me may not be interested in me, and that's OK.
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@RyanMM You're right - each of our experiences is unique to the network we've built. It makes me happy to hear you are finding it to be as good or better each day. Gives me hope!
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@KaryD They're definitely out there. I can't speak to the way you use Twitter, but I find the value proposition really amps up when the online social media crosses over into the real world. There's a great social community in Detroit that taps into a lot of different cross-section of interests, backgrounds, and occupations, and I find a lot of my new follows from these in-person gatherings rather than via Twitter itself.
I also prioritize fun over everything else. If I'm not having fun, I always try and figure out why so I can fix it.
@RyanMM I generally agree with you. The increasing diversity of the population means I run into more surprising people all the time, meaning I'm constantly challenged. That's very good, IMHO. Since I see Twitter primarily as a point of Contact, not a center of Community, that's what I'm looking for - and I get it. But I do think that it's starting to fail more often than it used to. :-)
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Twitter is only as good as who you follow. As far as echo chambers, saturation and people not playing, that sounds like Facebook to me. Facebook is over.
@John Fitzgerald that may be a function of who you followed on one platform vs. the other. For me, Twitter is a wall of sound, most of it useless, throw away information, but Facebook groups are becoming my 'must check' item.
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@John Fitzgerald That is interesting... I am spending more time on Facebook than Twitter these days. I guess it depends on when someone joins either. I can see FB being totally saturated for people who have been there since college.
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@John Fitzgerald Interesting. I'm actually finding quite the opposite, but, probably very unique to each of our networks. And yes - it's all about the network we create.
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Kary, I couldn't agree more. Interestingly, Twitter is reverting back to what it was when I first joined many moons ago. Back then it was an RSS feed, people complaining about things or sharing what they ate, etc. But there wasn't any real engagement. Then it shifted in 2009-2010 to being more about engagement. Now, it seems we are back to it being an RSS feed.
That said, what we are seeing is the natural evolution of communities. Communities always ebb and flow and it's something that organizations who use social media, networks and platforms will need to get used to as well.
Personally, I spend more time on Facebook because it's easier to have a conversation with threaded responses.
Also, I think some folks in the social media fishbowl (our community) are getting bored. I know I am. I haven't seen anything new in a really long time when it comes to social media. I would have thought by now we'd be having a different level of conversation, but that doesn't seem to be happening in abundance. Maybe when that happens Twitter will start to flow again. ;-)
@BethHarte Why does there have to be anything 'new' in social media when there is a huge audience out there that hasn't figured out how to take advantage of the existing tools yet? We've yet to scratch the surface of business use of Twitter, location-based services, and other existing tools.
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@RyanMM I have been doing social media (for business) for over six years. I am bored with the "social media rules" people try to impart on others. I am tired of people who have been doing social media for 1-2 years acting as though they are experts. I expected by now that the level of conversation would have moved to an intermediate or advanced state. What can I say? It's my personal perspective, it's where I am. If I am not learning anything new or having advanced conversations, I am going to seek out where that is happening.
Having been in this space a long time, one can defintely see the waves of new people diving in, learning, and blogging about what some people blogged about 3-4 years ago.
Like I said, the communities ebb and flow and it's what I see happening on Twitter, Facebook, blogs and forums.
@BethHarte @primesuspect @RyanMM Now that just sounds delightful. What can I say...i'm nostalgic like that.
@RyanMM Ryan, I am a very patient person... Heck, I have been waiting for companies to understand the value of customer-centric marketing for 16 years. We will get their with deeper social media conversations, but something will need to trigger it. What it is, I am not sure just yet. Also, if I had to predict it, I think we will see private social media becoming for popular from a product innovation perspective. Time will tell.
@primesuspect Ugh! I hope not... Does that mean I need to wear bell bottoms and a big straw hat while listening to the Dead on 8-track? ;-) cc: @RyanMM
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@BethHarte I sympathize with getting bored with the status quo. Hopefully waiting for the conversation to evolve won't turn into waiting for Godot.
@BethHarte Regarding the threaded view of Facebook (which Twitter.com can resemble with a Greasemonkey script, btw), would your perspective be the same with blogs that have threaded comment systems vs blogs that have flat comments?
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@BethHarte Thanks, Beth. You're right - OUR communities are evolving, and maybe Twitter isn't the space for them to thrive. Ebb and flow, I guess. I'd love to see a new level of conversation, but you're right...people are tired. (Myself included,some days.) Like @ginidietrich said, this takes work. All relationships do.
Kary, this is a great conversation to have with your clients. They need to understand that making an investment in social media also means being flexible and being able to flow with where industry, customer, analyst, etc. conversations and communities are occurring.
Sometimes I think all of this online "stuff" gets them better prepared for more serious business conversations offline. Learning to listen can be one of the biggest hurdles...once they master that, well who knows what kinds of wonderful things will happen.
@BethHarte Absolutely. @JenKaneCo always tell our clients that taking the conversation online is making a commitment to their customers/stakeholders/prospects/employees and that in doing so, the intel they gather needs to in-turn shape the business. If they aren't ready for that, then they've got work to do, first.
@KaryD @BethHarte @ginidietrich "Community isn't something you <i>have</i>, like a pizza."
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@JenKaneCo Well, thanks Jen! Let's not forget that we also took the social thing offline, too. That matters when it comes to community. ;-) And yes, we are married old ladies. Heh.
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@wabbitoid Wait, so let me get this straight... You are saying I am wrong because *you* went out and asked a bunch of people for opinions?
How about reading Peter Block's book "Community" or Smith & Berg's "Paradoxes of Group Life" and then getting back to me about how wrong I am? The problem is that you didn't ask anthropologists, sociologists, behaviorists, or ethnography experts what a community is. A community isn't what a company or business wants to get out of it. If you setup a community for the sole purpose of value and ROI, that is not truly understanding community or social media. Social media was not created for the sole purpose of business. In fact, it's the complete opposite. It's about people connecting with people. That's why it's like pizza. People can order their communities any way they want to. cc: @KaryD @ginidietrich
Business people need to truly try to understand the real social underpinnings of online media... Otherwise, their efforts will most likely fail. If there was ever a time to be customer empathetic, it's now.
@wabbitoid I am wrong, huh? I guess seven years of developing, managing, participating in and dismantling communities doesn't give me any insights. ;-)
@KaryD @ginidietrich
I'm a bit slow to find stuff on my own site today, but this is what got me to ask people what *they* thought community was. I think we had a good discussion on this topic with some diversity (not enough for me, but I ask this same question in other places):
@JenKaneCo Ah, but you're talking about a functional difference here, which is why I make the distinction between Community, Content, and Contact. You're talking about a point of contact, which Twitter is excellent for. People run into the most interesting things just by sharing little tidbits. Content, for what it's worth, has to be parked somewhere that does not have a 140 char limit ('natch).
Community? It can form on Twitter, since our gregarious standing-up chimp can make community just about anywhere. But there are far more natural places. If the biz in question is a bar, the center of Community will be in the bar itself - because Community always seeks out the most intimate place to form when it can. That means that Twitter, as a point of Contact, is totally subservient to the happenings at the bar which actually build Community in its natural location.
Your mileage may vary, your biz may be different. They all are. But keeping Community close to where it needs to be and really investing in it (e.g., Gini's comments on not relying on facebook as your website) is critical because Community is, by nearly any socilological definition, bigger than the people who make it up. It must be nurtured for it to blossom.
Twitter just ain't that. It's an excellent point of Contact, yes. But that's all it was ever designed to be. Communities that form in Twitter are an excellent testimony to the nature of our species but I wouldn't invest a lot of dough in that.
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@wabbitoid @ginidietrich @KaryD @BethHarte Well, call it what you will, for the last year, I pick up the phone or answer an email and someone says, "I follow you on Twitter, I need your help" and we get a new client. That's our return. Some of these people I know, many I've never spoken to before. All I know is, the tool hooked us up, so something's working there. We'd be fools to walk away from that. But we'd also be liars if we said that the changes in the tool always made up happy.
@ginidietrich @KaryD @JenKaneCo @BethHarte Let's take a step back for a moment. We're talking about a business here, which is to say an investment. Either you're in business as Twitter or you are a business building something on twitter.
Your investment demands a return over time. If you can get that return in a very short period of time, Mazeltov. If it takes a longer period of time, as most do, you have to have the platform continuing to function long enough to get a return on what you are spending.
That's why a community is essential no matter which side of this business you are on. If people simply move on before you get a return, what's the value?
If you do not encourage people to be genuine stakeholders then there you are much less likely to have your return. That is the difference between a community and ... obviously you don't like the word "scene", but what else would you use to describe a social behavior that goes from one place to another? I'm open to whatever word you want to use.
But please, it's not "community". It lacks the essential ownership if the allure fades as quickly as it has been for twitter. And that makes for lousy business - no matter which side you are on or what you want to call it.
For any small business, the "regulars" always pay the bills. That's what new media can develop far better than old media. That's the power of it. Moving on to the next trend misses most of the key advantages that fit into any small business' plan.
@ginidietrich @wabbitoid @BethHarte Absolutely. I never said I didn't like Twitter. In fact, I absolutely love the connections I've made, which is why the inevitable change is disheartening. But, I'll change with it because I'm not going anywhere. (Oh, and I did know that @JenKaneCo we go way back. Even lost our Twitter virginity together. :-)
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@KaryD @JenKaneCo @wabbitoid @BethHarte And, let's be real, none of us would know one another without Twitter.
@JenKaneCo @wabbitoid I'd have to agree. And, adore @BethHarte for the same reasons. It's a community that started within social media and hasn't let me down.
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@wabbitoid @BethHarte @KaryD @ginidietrich I'm with Beth on the community thing. I know her mostly from social and have grown to adore her...from social. She's part of my professional community online. We're all old married ladies. We don't do "scenes" :)
@BethHarte @KaryD @ginidietrich Here it is - what I wrote almost a year ago to predict ... well, a lot more posts like the one we are responding to:
http://erikhare.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/community-versus-scene/
There is a difference between a "community" and a "scene". The kind of casual association you describe does not make for a community, which is to say an institution with a strong sense of ownership among the participants. Flitting around from one scene to another is very, very different from placing your stake in the ground, i.e. being a "stakeholder", which is the mark of community.
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@wabbitoid @KaryD @ginidietrich Sure it is. It's exactly like a pizza. One day my community might be X another day it might be Y. Community is determined by the people involved and what they make of it. It's like that old slogan "have it your way." ;-)
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